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Half Cocked on 20mph!

26th August 2013

We have received a response to our article – Saying Plenty About 20.

The response is from Gordon Finlay the campaign coordinator for the campaign, which is seeking to have a 20mph default speed limit where people live, without traffic calming on the Ards Peninsula. The campaign is part of a UK wide campaign.

To make it clear, we support in the main the dedicated plan to introduce these 20mph limits where they are actually needed, along with other plans of action and continued work which have been developed through public consultation and discussion with local communities.

These are set out in the DOE (Department of the Environment) Northern Ireland’s Road Safety Strategy To 2020 Vision: Driving Road Safety Forward.

Mr Finlay has accused two “weekend motorcyclists” of exceeding 70mph in a County Down seaside village and has said that there are reports of motorcycle’s speeding in many villages in the Peninsula, which is getting a lot worse rather than better.

This is a concern, according to Mr Finlay, for the Community Police Liaison Committee (CPLC), with feedback also from Kirkcubbin, Greyabbey & Ballyhalbert members, mainly on a Saturday & Sunday and has been confirmed as a problem by the neighbourhood policing team.

As we have already said, “In our opinion, there is a minority of riders who due to their actions may be perceived as the majority.

These riders’ actions are what are remembered by the public, residents and other users of our roads, the majority of motorcyclists are not and should not be identified as “the problem”.

We thought we should be attending the next meeting of the CPLC to listen to the members concerns and “hear what residents of other villages have to put up with”.

However it would appear that somebody has got hold of the wrong end of the stick!

Links – Information

You can read the responses from Mr Finaly and our response to him below or – Click Here

Read the original article – Saying Plenty About 20 – Click Here

Please leave any comments on the original article page  – Saying Plenty About 20 – Click Here

Saying Plenty About 20 – Response!

26th August 2013

motorcyclespeedsmallWe have received a response to our article – Saying Plenty About 20.

“Trevor this is a very poorly written article with some incorrect statement’s, I feel the most important is you asked as Trevor Baird to come to the next meeting of CPLC as a ballyhalbert resident. Which you can do as a guess. you appear to have turned that around to being invited in your capacity with Road Safety Council for N.I. & Right to ride. This is not the case you where never invited & wouldn’t be without our chairman including this matter in the agenda. you invited yourself. There are a lot of other details in this article which are incorrect even though you could have got the correct information from the National campaign website address & from The N.I. direct website including The Share the Road to Zero campaign (which I have pledged to support). Please do not go of half cocked and produce articles like this without checking out the facts. “

The response is from Gordon Finlay the campaign coordinator for a campaign which is seeking to have a 20mph default speed limit where people live without traffic calming on the Ards Peninsula. Mr Finlay is also responsible for an online petition which is addressed to the Northern Ireland Assembly – Peter Robinson, Martin McGuinness, OFMDFM – Mark H. Durkin, Environment Minister for Northern Ireland – Danny Kennedy, Department for Regional Development. This petition also highlights the aim for the Ards Peninsula to have a 20mph default speed limit where people live, without traffic calming and is part of a UK wide campaign.

We have laid out Mr Finlays response below and answered each part of this as appropriate.

Gordon Finlay: Trevor this is a very poorly written article.

Right To Ride: We have received several other comments about the article, none of which have been negative.

These comments range from – Good positive and well-reasoned article – Fair enough. Other comments on our Facebook page also engage with the aims of 20mph campaign not being positive.

Gordon Finlay: with some incorrect statement’s.

Right To Ride: First lets go through the invite to the CPLC (Community Police Liaison Committee) and the other details that you say are incorrect.

Gordon Finlay: I feel the most important is you asked as Trevor Baird to come to the next meeting of CPLC as a ballyhalbert (sic) resident. Which you can do as a guess (sic). you appear to have turned that around to being invited in your capacity with Road Safety Council for N.I. & Right to ride.

Right To Ride: Previous to you sending me (Trevor Baird) a message through on Facebook on the 31st July I had never heard of you or your campaign. My Facebook page gives no real inclination to where I live, however what it does do is give plenty of inclination that I am a motorcyclist and involved in motorcycle road safety.

In my reply to your first message, which you posted as Gordon Finlay, you simply had a link to the Ardspeninsula20splentyforusorguk Facebook page. A click on that link and it was obvious that you are the campaign organisor contacting me in your own name. In other words I have no doubt that this similar in how you came across me, why would you send me this message, other than linking my name to what I do?

In my first reply to you, apart from saying that I was unconvinced that a blanket 20mph will make a difference, I said that I lived in Ballyhalbert and relayed my opinion on some other road safety issues that we have in Ballyhalbert, I stated:

“Generally I deal with motorcycle safety issues and through that we have managed to set up with various stakeholders and chaired by DOE, a motorcycle safety forum. Through other safety initiatives and my main work, I have a seat at the table at the Road Safety Forum Chaired by the DOE Minister (recently Minister has changed).

The main “stuff” I do is at www.righttoride.co.uk with motorcycle safety initiatives at www.rideitright.org – www.firstaidforriders.org – www.bikernisafetycard.org

On the Ride It Right site we have favourite motorcycle routes which has the Ards Pennisula listed www.rideitright.org/?page_id=63 “

From this I would have assumed that you would have realised that you were dealing with myself as regards motorcycling issues and not just an individual from Ballyhalbert.

In your next message to me you then mention as a committee member of CPLC, that, “we hear report’s (sic) of motorcycle’s speeding in many village’s (sic) in the peninsula, this matter is getting a lot (sic) worse rather than better,”

You also say, “I get feedback also from Kirkcubbin, Greyabbey & Ballyhalbert members on the committee. mainly on a Saturday & Sunday, this has been confirmed as a problem by the neighbourhood policing team,”

You then go on to mention about the Speed Indicator Device and bikes going through Portavogie in excess of 70 MPH in a 30 zone.

I reply to your concerns finally saying, “Also I would be interested in attending a CPLC to hear the concerns regarding this, back in 2010 we attended a public meeting of the Ards District Policing Partnership (DPP) to present Ride It Right http://www.rideitright.org/?p=1255

Our motorcycle safety awareness is based on having a passion for motorcycle/motorcyclists safety but without emotion driving what we do. We also work alone the principle of engineering – engagement – enforcement, with engagement coming first.”

So at this stage in our conversation it is very clear that I am not speaking as an individual but as part of a collection of motorcycle road safety initiatives.

Later on in the conversation it is you who say, “Let’s leave it I will let you know date of next CPLC meeting when you can come as a resident of ballyhalbert (sic) as a guest and you will be able to hear other members views on motor bikes passing through other villages in the peninsula and the NPT will have 1 or 2 officer’s there as well.”

At no time did I agree to come only as a resident of Ballyhalbert, you made that decision.

If this is the case for the terms of an invite I will not be attending as an individual.

As Right To Ride we have 29 Motorcycle Club Supporters, 13 Business supporters and along with individual motorcyclists support that is just over 1,000 supporters.

As Right To Ride, knowing of the alleged motorcycle speeding issues and to come along to hear what residents of villages have to put up with, I would be negligent in not listening on behalf of these supporters. In fact I was going to ask for the invite to be extended to at least one other motorcyclist, who may have been from one of the motorcycle clubs either based on the Ards Penninsula or surrounding area.

Also you are factually wrong when you say, “invited in your capacity with Road Safety Council for N.I.” nowhere in our conversation on Facebook or in the published article have I stated that I have any capacity with or represent the Road Safety Council N.I.

On Facebook you do say, “I was hoping for a more positive response from RSC of NI.” which I assume is the Road Safety Council of Northern Ireland.

At this stage of writing I think that you need to withdraw your incorrect statement that says I was invited in my capacity with Road Safety Council for N.I.

I will be forwarding this message in full to the Road Safety Council of Northern Ireland in case they have been informed of your mistake as a fact!

So inclusion at this part of the conversation had only expressed an interest in attending a CPLC meeting!

Gordon Finlay: This is not the case you where (sic) never invited & wouldn’t be without our chairman including this matter in the agenda. you invited yourself.

Right To Ride: In your next Facebook message you state: “Trevor you would be made very welcome at the next meeting of CPLC, we changed our constitution at the last AGM to include a wider area including Ballyhalbert you could meet members of NPT at the meeting as no specific officer is dealing with speeding, you will also meet other members who can tell you there concerns, we are in summer recess until September, if you send me an email to (email address removed) so I have your details on file I will let you know nearer the time.”

I sent you the email to which you confirmed on Facebook by saying, “Received Trevor thanks will let you no (sic) date of next meeting when set.”

So really Gordon if that is not an invite I do not know what is and your accusation that I invited myself is outrageous. This is another statement that you need to retract!

What was actually said in the article was, “The outcome of these conversations and communications is that Right To Ride should be attending a meeting of the CPLC to listen to the members concerns to, “hear what residents of other villages have to put up with” however we do find it somewhat bizarre that motorcyclists are speeding throughout the Peninsula villages at such high speeds.”

Maybe this could be just semantics but we did not say we were invited, we said we should be attending a meeting, thus that is a maybe not taken fact that our invite to the meeting was established!

Is it perhaps that you have caught yourself out in procedures for the CPLC, in that you should have approached your Chairman/Other Committee members first before you as an individual put out an invite?

If you can send me the details of the CPLC Chairman, I could have an informal chat about the issues and see if there is actually an invite to come along and listen to the problems as you have outlined.

I have contacted the Ards PSNI Neighbourhood Policing Team and I am waiting for a reply to discuss the motorcycle issues you have highlighted that they say have recognised.

I think these two options are much better that going through yourself as a third party, don’t you?

However back to the article.

Gordon Finlay: There are a lot of other details in this article which are incorrect even though you could have got the correct information from the National campaign website address &; from The N.I. direct website including The Share the Road to Zero campaign (which I have pledged to support).

Right To Ride: If you could highlight which details in the article are incorrect that would be great so that we can deal with them?

You mention the National Campaign website to get this correct information but until we know what details are incorrect we can’t do anything to address your concerns.

You say we could have got correct information from, “N.I. direct website including The Share the Road to Zero campaign (which I have pledged to support).” As you know this is a DOE (Department of the Environment) road safety campaign with has one aim – zero road deaths in Northern Ireland.

I don’t see the connection here in getting the correct information from either The Share the Road to Zero or the N.I direct (indirect governemnt services) website?

In the article on the Right To Ride website we have reproduced the comments we made as individuals on the Newtownards Chronicle Facebook.

My partner at Right To Right, Elaine Hardy PhD, whose background is vehicle data analysis and was the research officer for a national and European riders organisation before coming the Research Director of Right To Right commented, “Could you Mr Finlay provide evidence that the implementation of a 20 mph zone actually works? I don’t think so. The evidence would need to be based on comparisons of KSIs from before and after implementing such a speed limit. Given the reduction of police officers throughout the country who could be able to enforce this speed limit and given the fact that the reduction in speed would require car drivers to actually take heed of the speed limit, I suggest Mr Finlay that your speculative comments are unfounded and unreliable.”

To date there has been no answer to this; it is not up to us to go searching, it is up to you as a campaigner to convince people that what you say is correct. However when you asked for my support I did as Right To Ride go searching, so as you say we do not go of half cocked.

Also on the 12th August you sent a message to the Biker NI safety Card face book page https://www.facebook.com/BikerNiSafetyCard with just a link to the 20mph campaign. This was two weeks after I said to you that this initiative was part of the motorcycle safety “stuff” I do.

Gordon Finlay: Please do not go of half cocked and produce articles like this without checking out the facts.

Right To Ride: At Right To Ride we never at half cock we are always on full cock and with the safety on, ready to go.

We have checked the facts or rather the propaganda that we can find in support of 20mph limits and we wait for evidence of speeding motorcycles through the Ards Peninsula villages.

In conclusion perhaps in your reply to the Right To Ride article – Saying Plenty About 20 – you may have misinterpreted the facts and no longer have our Facebook message conversation to reference.

Regards

Trevor Baird

Right To Ride

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